How the lebanese are seen by israelis
I invite all the israelis who surf on the lebanese blogs, to write a few lines and describe how they feel, and what they think about the lebanese people. And how they see the future of the region.
Don't hesitate to elaborate..
For all the racists (of both sides) and the narrow minded people (which is actually a redondancy), please don't pollute this blog with your unwelcome remarks.
Don't hesitate to elaborate..
For all the racists (of both sides) and the narrow minded people (which is actually a redondancy), please don't pollute this blog with your unwelcome remarks.
posted by Jean at 8:25 PM
42 Comments:
thank you for your comment.
and if I may complete your series of "if you don't.., then this and that",
I'll say:
If you don't know how to speak without sounding racist, then refrain from speaking.
Any comments are welcome, provided they are not racist.
thank you for your question.
Nevertheless, in order to respect the title of the post, I can't express my opinion on this post.
I would gladly share it with you if you have a blog, or care to give me an eMail address.
I think Lebanese are more or less the same as we are. Same number of hands, legs etc. (do not laugh: when one of my friends confessed in some Siberian village that he is a Jew, the old women in whose house they lived tried to check politely if he has hooves).
I think that they have big prejudice against Jews as a rule, though would not probably try to kill a Jew as soon as they see him.
They are probably the most European middle easterners (except, of cause, Israelis). Good food, great nature,
beautiful women. Most probably a great wine. Flourishing economics, by now decimated but that will be rebuilt in months after Hezb expulsion (I'm that naive). By far not as good as Israel in science, though not a zero (which is amasing taking political situation into account).
Very complicated politics, fear of civil war, of Syria. Home of the formerly most dangerous terrorist organization in the world. Very strange perception of Israel, so strong that it defeats logic (e.g.:
Israel has almighty war mashine,
Israel targets civilians, Israel killed <300 civilians in 7 days).
Slightly childish world perception probably due to a long Syrian occupations: citizens have no idea that they are responsible for the state, and can and should force politicians to act.
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Hi all,
I have created a new blog with some updates from Lebanon amassed from various news sources. I am trying to update as quickly and accurately as possible. I have posted and will continue to post my thoughts on the matter. While this is off topic in this blog it might be of interest to some of your readers.
www.voicesonthewind.blogspot.com
Best,
R
Thank you all for your responsible posts.
Keep them coming.
Momo, I sent you an eMail. I hope it doesn't give you a migraine.. if it does, please don't consider this as a terrorist attack on an israeli citizen ;)
thanks, nobody (... that came out weird..),
The last I heard, sanioura and hariri said that the army must be sent to the south and that hizbullah must take its war elsewhere than in lebanon.
That was today.
Do you know of any other comments made by the two men ?
Okay, I didn't catch the last part when I was listening.
Anyway, Maybe I'll open another post for this matter, I don't want to interfere a lot on this post, I'll keep it merely for the israelis to express their opinion.
But feel free to ask for any topic. I'll open one.
my last post was refering to nobody@2:58 and not to nobody@3:02
With every rocket that falls on Israel, I shed two tears. One for the Israeli victims, one for the Lebanese victims of the inevitable retaliation.
I'm an Israeli living in London. For the last week I have been sending and receiveing emails of concern to and from Lebanese friends.
One thing I learnt here - we Israelis are closer to the Palestinians and Lebanese than to any other nation. We share the same food, the same landscape, and - yes - the same tragedies. No, not symetricaly - but our history is one.
I'm not the first to say this: the Palestinians and the Lebanese are the Jews of the middle east. Always suffering for someone else's cause. It shames me to think that again and again this suffering is adminitered by my goverment.
thank you all again for your feedback.
Well, as many of you asked for my opinion, here goes. I'll try to make it as short and explicit as possible.
First, a quick insight on the lebanese scene.
the lebanese people are NOT the lebanese politicians.
I don't know if you, in Israel, were up to date with what was happening in lebanon since the year 2000.
Students, the youth, were almost every day in the streets, demonstrating peacefully againt the syrian presence in Lebanon.
They were always repressed and pushed back violently by the syrian controlled lebanese security forces.
each and every time !
But this, the world media did not show ! many students spent at least many hours in prisons, for demonstrating peacefully against the syrian presence.
this did not discourage us at all.
Do you think that the march 14th uprising was an instantaneous thing ? of course not, it was going on since 2000, but the americans finally decided to back us up in 2005, with made this uprising.
So buttomline, you have the right to think of the lebanese politicians as cowardly, spineless people, but in no way the lebanese people are like that.
Moreover, our relations with israel are officially that we are at war.
once again, it does not reflect the street opinion.
For those of you who are historically aware, remember, at least 2 christian right-wing parties collaborated openly with israel against the arabs, namely the "Lebanese Forces" and the "Guardians of the Cedars".
But then again, 70 to 75% of the shiite muslims support hizbullah.
christians are all out against it.
On the other side, you said that the lebanese should be thankful for israel for trying to remove hizbullah.
Hey, do you remember the south lebanon army, which fought alonside israel in the south against hizbullah ? how did the israelis treat them in 2000 ?? it was disgusting to see how israel treated its allies, who fought and died with it... we did not forget that..
Moreover, do you really expect the lebanese to say thank you, when they see pictures of children torn apart, women and men, civilians ? I don't care if their ideology is against israel, when did that become a crime ?
Yesterday, the IAF bombarded a ..... christian neighborhood... was the pilot blinded by the sun or what ?? what the heck are israeli bombs doing in a christian area ?? the official version is that the army mistook a water-drilling truck for a rocket truck.. aren't you guys supposed to be one of the most perfected armies of the planet ?
well guess what, if hizbullah puts a rocket truck in ashrafieh (the christian area), be sure that the residents will be the first ones to chase them away, by all means possible.
Buttomline, lebanese leaders are spineless people, we support the removal of hizbullah, by force if necessary, but we don't want to see pictures of dead children.
anyway, this post is already too long, I'll wait for your feedback and questions before writing any more.
A quick commentary, about the presence of hizbullah in the parliament.
This sickens me as much as it does to you.
But remember, 70 to 75% of the shiite support hizbullah. this is practiacally a very large majority of the southern citizens. they are lebanese too, and have the right to vote.
This is why hizbullah is in the parliament.
As for the other points, read my previous post.
I can believe such a thing, but all I am saying is that it doesn't help.
I am also sure that the IDF is aware that hitting civilians would only play against them in the public opinion.
I also know that Hizbullah hide on purpose among civilian populations, that's what a guerilla is, and that's just sick.
Having said that, know that every child that dies makes ALL the lebanese hurt very much, supporters or not of hizbullah.
That is why I would rather the IDF made a land incursions. you don't make that many civilian casualties when you attack by land.
anyway..
Nasrallah is far from being hailed as a hero in lebanon, especially in the christian areas, but not only. sunnies agree with christians on that matter.
I will let you also imagine how the christians felt when nasrallah announced recently "this is not the war of hizbullah, nor the war of lebanon, this is the war of the islamic nation, whether the lebanese like it or not".
on what media do you base your judgement to say that nasrallah is celebrated in lebanon ?
he is no more than an iranian agent ready to put our beloved country in flames over a cause that doesn't concern us, and upon which we do not agree.
In lebanon we have a saying "Syria and Iran are ready to fight Israel until the last Lebanese....."
oh ok, thank you !!
this is the reason I created this blog.
Thank you for your actions !!
(It still amazes me to have to say "thank you nobody" ;) )
(for your info, nasrallah, is short from being considered a traitor. At any case, he is defending a cause that does not serve the lebanese cause)
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"nobody", you are welcome to keep on posting. your experience is very fruitful for the blog.
Do not hesitate to intervene at any moment.
As for the christian lebanese, I really think they are underestimated. (not only because I belong to this community).
there are 4 million lebanese in lebanon, 15 million around the world, 90% of which are lebanese.
The first surgeon who "reattached" a cut-off hand to a patient is lebanese, the CEO of Renault and Nissan, is lebanese, Shakira is half lebanese -;)-, etc etc etc..
David, I am very familiar with yadioth achronot.
Unfortunately, I am not in lebanon right now. I have a lot of contacts in lebanon, do not hesitate if you think I can help.
Muslims (shiites, druze, and sunnies) make up 60% of the lebanese population. The others are christians and a minority of jews.
shiites are the majority among muslims,I would say 25 to 35% of the général population.
It is also true that a muslim family has more children than others.
But it is also true that about half a million muslims were given the lebanese citizenship in a law passed in the late 1990's, under the pressure of syria, which gave the lebanese nationality to many palestinians and syrians.
this law can be discussed once sovereignty is established.
But it is equally true that many lebanese muslims have approximatly the same way of life as the christians ! many muslims, living near christian areas, go to christian schools, have western habbits, don't wear scarves etc.. you would be amazed by the number of such people.
Like I said, 70 to 75% of the shiites support hizbullah.
But the right question is WHY?
actually, in the south, there is a total lack of government structures, so it is Hizbullah who builds schools, hospitals, etc..
so for the people of the south, hizbullah IS the state.
My guess is once hizbullah removed, and the lebanese government takes over the south and builds the necessary infrastructure, this will chage a great deal.
jean
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i just did nt know how to formulate my questions correctly but i bet that israelis are oriented more on america and technology ...
I guess you are right. this is what I am trying also to discover through this post.
My mother tongues are french and lebanese. But I also speak arabic and english and german very fluently, polish and italian a little less.
So yes, I guess we are more oriented to Europe more so than to the USA, culturally.
Did you for exemple know, that in schools and universities, the learning language is French (or english for some anglophones) ? I bet you thought it is Arabic.
Did you know that we are practically at the same level of medicine than France ?
I could go on forever.
Because of our phoenician descendance, we are pretty much always pictured as people with commercial sense, but we can do science when we want to ;)
@nobody, I live in Europe, have israeli friends. like the israeli living in mexico said in a previous post, there are no problems whatsoever.
But I have a lebanese friend who once met an israeli, who told her that israelis viewed lebanese as inferior people, and that israel had the power to wipe the lebanese off the earth anytime they wanted to.
@yair, I can assure you the christians will never be thrown out of Lebanon. It is in the interest of no one except the arabs to do so.
France, europe, and the USA cannot afford such a thing. Do you know that christians are for Europe, the gates to the middle east, and to the arab world ?
Add to that, for the christians, Jesus christ was born in this region, and the lebanese cedars are called the cedars of god, because Jesus once walked therer and blessed them.
It would be hard, not to say impossible to drive the christians out of there.
History will prove me right or wrong.
yeah well we have people wanting to throw the jews to the sea, so, we have those too.
@David Goldman, do you care to communicate your eMail instead of your phone numbers ? Thanks
Thanks subrosa (romantic nickname by the way, fan of Eagle Eye Cherry ?)
I don't know if you went through the agony of reading the already existing posts, I wouldn't blame you if you didn't ;)
In one post, I tell the difference between lebanese leaders and lebanese people, especially the youth.
I hope this war teaches our leaders some courage. I would say we're on the right track, since our premier said that hizbullah should and must be disarmed.
Let's hope.
Jean, thank you for this post, allowing Israeils to express what is a very common sentiment here. One that views, and has always viewed, the moderates of Lebanon as our potential allies, never an enemy.
I agree with you that Israel's handling of the south Lebanese army was shameful. It was the worst part of the withdrawal, IMO.
Nobody likes seeing dead babies. I think you and me may care about them more than the Shi'ites that we see on TV (more on that to come). I could be wrong. I hope I'm wrong.
My heard breaks seeing the affected children and babies, on both sides. Children have been killed here as well since this has started. We don't show pictures of our dead children in the Israeli media. It's considered disrespectful towards the dead. But they are there. On both sides, I attribute these deaths to Hezbulla, be it on their consciense.
As for Israel hitting a truck in the Christian area. I agree, this was a mistake. An error of judgement. This is a war and believe it or not, our officers are mere humans and make mistakes too. Thank you for noting that, I will actually be sending the message on to people who are involved in the attack. I hope it helps.
Jonjo, I watched that movie, I can't believe you actually present it as any kind of "evidence".
I'll tell you what I see there. I see a Shi'ite extremist lying through his teeth about Israel beginning the current attacks and how it's up to Israel to just stop. That is what I call pure propaganda.
As for these being civilians bombarded "and not military targets". Well, we all know the Hezbulla has deliberately positioned its HQ's, offices, ammonition, weapons and what not all as mixed up as possible with civilian Shi'ite. They didn't even force it on the Shi'ite, as far as I know. People fully agreed to have a room in their apartment used as an ammunition depot.
I'm glad those people evacuated their homes. We are not after dead civilians, babies or adults. But with all due respect, bombarding the Hezbulla infrastructure is 100% legitimate. Since the Shi'ite chose to have that infrastructure mixed with their own shops and homes, they are going to lose those.
Please remember, the Hezbulla initiated this attack 8 days ago. Not us. They have only themselves to blame for Shi'ite civilians suffering.
Please, I invite everyone to visit my wartime blog, I would love to have more Lebanese (and others) participate.
http://israelimom.blogspot.com/
Actually I see no difference in Israeli's and Lebanese. From what I gather they pretty much want the same thing: live. And, if that's possible: live well.
Pitty it's made impossible by countries taking Lebanon hostage for their own ideologies that are, for as far as I can see, NOT the ideologies of Lebanon.
I bet I have much more in common with every given Lebanese than for example a hilltop settler in Israel....
Tse.
Sorry, that shouldn't be "every given Lebanese" but some or most or something.
Tse.
Israelimom,
I'm amazed you answered many of the points I pointed out in my previous posts.. so someone is actually reading :) makes me happy !
I'm surprised by your sincerity and your simplicity in your answers.
Please do not hesitate to invite your israeli friends to come and write their own opinion too.
I would love to read the opinion of every fraction of the israeli society, even extremists, as long as their posts are not offending.
@nobody,
sunnies are more moderate muslims, in lebanon. (not the case in irak, you would have guessed).
I think it is probably because of their contact with christians.
Having said that, there are also christian assholes, as everywhere else.
Just so I could figure out what fractions of the israeli society I am talking to, could you (all) please state your sex and age ? (not an obligation ;) )
@ Israel Mom and every one who thinks war is the right option,
I think I mentioned that just watch the movie not whatever which was said over the movie. We all know that Hezbollah HQ is between people. I have not lived in southern Beyrouth, Maybe if you ask the people who are living there they might even tell you that they are proud to have Hezbollah HQ there and now they even prefer to die rather than whatever else.
Those are not that I would be worried about. Have you seen this site? www.fromisraeltolebanon.info. www.fromisraeltolebanon.info Maybe you want to take look.
The point that I was trying to make was that this type of bombardon is not a solution to this crisis and it won’t bring any peace. This is just the same thing that happened in Iraq. Is Iraq a better place today? In the same number of days since the beginning of this conflict, more than 400 people have been killed in Iraq! These are all humans who are paying the consequences of careless leaders.
Do you think what Israel is doing today will make a safer place in northern Israel? I certainly doubt that. The only way towards peace is to understand that killing each other will not give us anything but hate and a karma which will came back to us. Those children who are born in southern Lebanon have been though that Israel is the enemy. They have been thought that Israel is the reason for their humiliation. Can IAF kill all these kids? You have to change the way they think rather than killing them. Having a stronger Lebanon means, the government can offer people more and then people can choose between Hezbollah and anti-Hezbollah.
Don’t you think people in Israel are brain washed too? Many Israelis say what IAF is doing will make a safer Israel! It is saving Israelis civilians. Well wrong, it is just making it worst. Has the rockets stopped from firing? More people have got killed for no reason. I agree with you that it was Hezbollah’s fault which started this assault by taking those soldiers. It was said somewhere else too, if a dog bite you, don’t bite it back . In this case Israel says lets just kill the dog with everything around it. It was possible to prevent another 25 Israeli and 300 Lebanese from getting killed by simply not going into this war.
I am ashamed that after so many thousands years of civilisation, the only thing that we have achieved is how to kill each other. The land that you are fighting above it is one of the oldest places on our planet. The people who have got killed there before, they were brave enough to fight man to man and die face to face. There was no democracy those days but those who wanted to be out of the war had the choice. The battlefield was outside the cities not in the middle of them.
Today we become soldier, or become Hezbollah or IAF or Marines or whatever to get a gun or whatever advanced technology to kill a poor civilians which we don’t know them, we never have seen them before and we never will know how they have died. We just shoot. Wow what a great achievement. Before only brave people were going to battlefields and they were heroes, no matter to kill or get killed. Today any one can kill, you don’t need to know much, there is a trigger, just click, and it will shoot out and hit something and someone. Just make sure you are aiming to the right direction.
Bless you all.
@jonjo,
I won't comment what you said, I will leave it to the israelis who would like to do it, but I will say just that: there is no way to compare Lebanon and Iraq.
Please don't fall into vain comparisons.
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Hello Maggie,
Nice to see more lebanese on my blog.
I would be very grateful to you, Maggie, if you could just point out to me where I said that shiite are bad people and that christians are supernatural.
I think it was an israeli, "nobody", who said that about christians.
I just gave the composition of the society, and gave a true image of the lebanese ideology.
I said 70 to 75% of shiite back hizbullah. Am I wrong, Maggie ?
I said most of the christians don't. Am I wrong, Maggie ?
I said muslims have many more children than others, am I wrong, Maggie ?
I said shiite of the south back hizbullah because hizbullah IS the state, in the south, am I wrong, Maggie ?
is this really "bullshit", like you so beautifully put it ? do you really think so Maggie ?
I think Maggie, sadly, many lebanese think hypocritically like yourself. "let's fight ourselves on the inside, but say that we are united on the outside".
This is exactly one of the lebanese problems.We are being mocked worldwide because of that, but I guess you are too blind to see that.
How many people know that there are christians in lebanon ? you would be surprised to know how few they are.
It is time to stop, and admit who we are. we are different from one another. that doesn't mean it is bad, nor that it is good. it means we are different.
I never allowed myself to say shiites are bad. Nor that christians are supernatural.
I describes how we are, for people to make conclusions.
While israelis may see christians as supernatural and shiite as bad, iranians would say christians are a virus and shiites semi-gods.
More so, now that you mention that, I haven't said that before, but now I will. do you really think I am going to watch hizbullah and israel distroy my country, for the sake of the "Islamic Nation", like nasrallah says, and do nothing about it ?? to quote you, "c'mon, this is bullshit please !" !!!
So, Maggie, before you let your blind nationalism guide your words, think of what you are saying, and if what you are saying serves really Lebanon, or someone else.
I wish you luck with your english courses, and stay safe.
Jean
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Hey Maggie,
No problem, everyone has the right to express themselves, I'll see to it ! As long as the conversation is of some level. your post will not be removed, unless you speak with racism, which isn't what you are doing.
You read all of my posts.. I'm impressed and flattered :) at least you speak of what you know :)
Now let me try to answer your points.
you said: "showing the problem is not the solution".
My reply:
Maggie, I can clearly say, hiding the problem is even worse !!
why are we so complicated ?? let's show the problem, at least that will oblige us to deal with it.
You are right about religious conflicts. I don't see how we can make them go away. I'm with you on that point. Having said that, it doesn't mean that we can't live together, as long as all parties are MODERATE.
Afterwards, you demonstrate that I don't like Hizbullah (HA). you are... right, I DO NOT LIKE HA.
what I said in my previous post, is that I didn't say it in THIS post, because I wanted to give the israelis a chance to express themselves without intervening.
but yes, of course, in others blogs, I clearly said I didn't like HA. I think that I, just like you, am entitled to say what I think and feel, and have the right to do so.
And I will use my right by any means possible.
I am not afraid to say that I don't like HA.
HA is destroying my counrty, with the help of israel. Nasrallah is fighting the islamic nation's war, in my name... sorry nasrallah, NOT IN MY NAME !
you know, I don't know if you were in lebanon between 1998 and 2003, but during this period, the lebanese students used to demonstrate against the syrian presence in Lebanon. I was one of them. the WHOLE world was against us, that didn't stop us ! I used to go to many demonstrations, and each time or so, I used to get beaten up by the lebanese security forces, which were controlled at the time by syria.
That never stopped me from returning the next time. nor my collegues.
Where is this courage nowadays ?? why are the lebanese so afraid to speak their mind today ?? why should we say that we love HA ?? just to look united ?? is this really going to make lebanon better ?? now the world is WITH us, you have a better chance than us, when we were battling against the syrians with the whole world against us. now you have even the USA with you ! go do something with it !! revolt !! speak you peace !! STOP GETTING FRUSTRATED and do something about it !
you quoted me as saying, on another blog: "what the heck are israeli bombs doing in a christian area ? you really think that israel really wants to avoid Civilians no matter if they are christian or muslims? please you don't want to believe this..."
As a reply to this point, I will just say to you: Read what all the israelis wrote on my blog. Read, and see how they see us, how they see the war.
you can choose to believe them, or not. I invite you to believe them, because I know in lebanon, we are always taught that israel never means good with lebanon. well, what if we were wrong ? what if israel really just wanted to live in peace ? why don't we believe all these israelis who wrote their thoughts in my blog, and elsewhere ? they don't need to lie, it's not us who are attacking them, so they don't need to lie.
so yes maggie, i think israelis are trying to avoid civilians, but not just because they love lebanese civilians, but because if they kill too many civilians, the international community, USA included, will make them stop the war. remember 1996 ans Qana...
you said: "this mean that Chritians are "elite" in your mind believe me every person is privilege by his education and doing not by his religion"
I agree with you, it is education and culture that makes the difference. But maggie, it just happens that in lebanon, the christians have access to better educational systems. Am I wrong, Maggie ??? which is better , USJ or Arab University of Beirut ??
and that is why I said what I said ! christians are not better because they are christians, but because culturally, they have better access to education and a better educational system.
And that is why I also said that many muslims have the same way of life as christians, because many of them go to the same schools as christians, period. it has nothing to do with religion by itself.
It saddens me that in the south, we don't have good universities. I really believe that if we had good cultural universities in the south, free of propaganda, we wouldn't be having this war today. Do you agree ?
you said : "why do you have this dislike to Arab? you think that we are the descendant of phoenicians"
my reply:
Obviously you didn't read all my posts. where do I say that I hate arabs ?? I dislike syrians, because they ruined my country for many years, I dislike palestinians, because they wanted to exterminate lebanon and christians in particular, and make lebanon their new home. Does this mean I'm arabophobic ???? NO !
I don't think we are arabs, I don't think we are phoenicians. I think we are LEBANESE, and that should be ENOUGH, as a definition. Lebanese, Period.
Tell me Maggie, do you really want to go save the palestinians from the israelis like HA ? have you forgotten what the palestinians did to us in lebanon, during the war ? have you forgotten what yasser arafat said about Jounieh ? why do we have such a short memory ?
Let's solve our internal problems first, then only afterwards, we'll see how and if we can help others !!
Your english is just fine Maggie, at least I understand what you're saying :)
I hope my answers won't scare you and that you'll come back and give us a chance of another domocratic debate :)
I'll open a new thread for this. I would like to keep this one for the israelis to express their poin of views..
Cheers,
Jean
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Maggie,
please reply in the thread I just created, not here.
The thread
"Free Topic. General ideas and thoughts about this war."
Hope to read you soon.
Cheers,
Jean
--
Jean -
(and other Lebanese bloggers)
And what do you think about all the Israelis commenting on Lebannese blogs?
Leave your comment here:
http://yishaym.wordpress.com/2006/07/22/more-lebanese-blogs-more-israeli-comments/
Hi Jena,
First of all I'd like to say that I'm very glad to see that you're open minded, that you read what others have to say and that you're seeking the truth, no matter how painful or contradicting it may be.
There's one thing I'd like to disagree with you on. You said that Israel tries to avoid killing civilians because the world would intervene. It's like saying that we, the Israelis, have absolutely no respect for human lives, for the Lebanese people, women and children, as if we're trying to minimize the killing of civilians in order to continue the war.
I hope that when I say this, I speak in the name of most of the Israeli population: We're all human beings, we mean no harm to Lebanese Arabs and Christians as one. Whatever they might think of us, I've heard that people in Lebanon learn to hate Israel and are brainwashed since childhood, we have no reason to hate them - the opposite, we hope to have peace with them.
My thoughts as an Israeli about the war and how I see the Lebanese are posted in my blog:
www.israeli-diary.blogspot.com
Let me post here a part of it, if I may:
The Lebanese and the Israeli people have a lot in common. Both sides want peace. Both sides suffer from the outcome of this war. (Although more Lebanese civilians get killed than Israeli) Many here may disagree, but Israelis express deep regret regarding the civilian deaths in Lebanon. We're all human beings, death of innocent people is tragic for all of us. I wish there was a way to prevent innocent people from dying, if only Hezbollah didn't operate within civilian houses...
To all the Lebanese citizens and the Northern Israeli citizens, I pray for your safety. Please take care of yourselves, and your families.
To all the injured civilians on both sides - I pray for your fast recovery.
To all the families who have lost their loved ones, I grieve over your tragic loss. It is incomprehensible. Let us pray that they're in a better place, a safe one and a peaceful one.
If the Lebanese get enough courage to fight Hezbollah, Israel would withdraw its Army and cease fire. Instead, Israel would help the Lebanese - it would give them weapons and money. Then Lebanon would see what are Israel's true intentions. ;)
Dear Jean,
I like your honesty on your blog but wake up and see what is going on with Islamic threat around the world. You will be shocked!
Check:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
Islamic terrorists have carried more than 5404 deadly terror atacks since 9/11 and things are worsening! What I like in this site is that they are dealing only with facts, without any prejudice and manipulation. What I deplore most is that the moderate muslims don't speak out loudly enough against these neo-nazi barbaric acts.
Do you have Skype? What's your Skypename?
@Roby,
You can start by emailing me, on jean.souc@yahoo.fr . we'll see about skype then.
@shema!, this thread is for israelis to express their views, so if you care to have my point of view, please email me, I'll be happy toanswer your questions.
Thank you both for taking time to take part in my blog.
Jean
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I don't know if I can add much to the debate, but my own perspective.
I think Israelis view Lebanese as a whole as those who've suffered the blunt end. Unlike other Arab nations, we recognize that Lebanese aren't homogenous; So while we hate the guts of HizbAllah, we know that this isn't what Lebanon stands for.
This is possibly due to either prejudice - Israelis like Christians and Druze Arabs better than Muslims, and Lebanon has a lot of those - or due to our 20 year occupation, we got to know Lebanon a bit better than other places, and we were allies and friends with The South Lebanon Army.
Culturally, we preceive Lebanon as our closest neighbour, even closer than the Palestinians, Egyptians or Jordanians.
I remember watching METV as a kid and thinking how much cooler Lebanese TV is than pre-cable Israeli TV.
So, ultimately, our view of Lebanon is rather ambiguous. On the one hand, we hate hate hate HizbAllah and all they stand for. On the other hand, we secretly smiled at the Cedar Revolution, glad to see Lebanese independance come of age, and since we have relatively few and easily negotiable issues (Sheba'a farms? comeon), we'd gladly and proudly put our conflicts with Lebanon behind.
A few years ago, the notion of signing a treaty with Lebanon which did not include a (much more complicated) treaty with Syria was impossible. The day after tomorrow, it seems closer than ever. However, I gather some time would need to pass for this to be discussed.
With HizbAllah at our border, peace could never be signed. If Lebanese govt becomes the sole monopoly for exertion of force, it becomes a viable partner for negotiations, which, as mentioned, shouldn't be too complicated.
Who knows? Full normalization could be a few years away.
Maybe this is the way forward for Lebanese and Israelis to understand each other better, ant to realise that civilians are not responsible for their leaders actions. They are, however, responsible for speaking out against their leaders crimes/inaction as do many Lebanese and some Israelis (hopefully more Israelis than is reported in the media).
Dear Jean,
Thank you for your honest platform. You will always be welcoam in Israel along with evry life, peace and prosperity loving person from Lebanon.
As for The Indispensable Condition of Peacein our reagion I recomend reading this:
http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=12831&news_iv_ctrl=1021
Thank You,
Boaz Arad
Ramat Hashron, Israel
boazATonroad.co.il
Jean - congratulations on looking for alternate opinions. As someone who is Lebanese, I am very saddened by your discrimination between Sunnis, Shiites and Maronites. The phenemona that you explained (about Christians having better access to education, etc..) is true to a certain extent. I think recently that has somewhat dissolved and the Shiites as well as the Sunnis have made significant advances.
But, that phenemon is also the crux of the problem. Let's explore for a moment why the Shiites love HA. Obviously, these reasons are purely from their perspective:
- During the 20 year Israeli occupation of the South, HA was the only movement in Lebanon that gave a crap and that wouldn't rest until the Israelis were out. The occupation wasn't easy on the people of the South.
- They want someone to defend them. From reading this blog, apparently the Israelis have fond memories of that incursion, the Lebanese do not. Thousands of Lebanese died. And, even if that incursion like this one, was not about the "Lebanese people", the Lebanese paid an excruciating price. Sorry, that doesn't encourage someone to throw roses your way. (Personally, I think it is the height of arrogance to destroy someone's country - for whatever cause - and then expect a thank you.) The Southerners know that they will be the first to get hit if Israel ever entered again. Can they trust the Lebanese army to protect them? (I know many will say well if HA disarms, then Israel won't come in again. Sorry - the Southerners don't believe that. Too many quotes of David Ben Gurion out there saying that the Litani is a "natural border" for Israel.)
- All the spending on infrastructure that happened after the war went directly to Beirut and other areas. There was no movement to improve basic infrastructure in the South. HA filled that void.
- Traditionally, the Shiites have been the underdog in Lebanese politics with many people taking on your attitude of disdain - if not outward dislike. HA has managed to make significant political gains.
- When the Israelis penetrated Lebanese airspace and land on almost a daily basis (read the UN reports) with HA responding, where was the government? Even after the Cedar revolution, why wasn't the Lebanese government on the UN floor or the telephone with the US SCREAMING about a peace treaty with Israel? After all, that would have handled ALL the issues that HA has been so tenaciously holding on to and minimized their support significantly. Even if we had then had a conflict, it would have been a completely different situation.
So, yes, the Shiites support HA and not without reason. This isn't just about Israel. Actually, I was listening to a program on NPR (local Boston station) where Jeff Goldman (a reporter) had interviewed the Southern Lebanese after the Israeli withdrawal. His impression was that, while there was no love lost, they wanted to get on with their life and didn't want aggression.
This is also about the attitude of many Lebanese towards the Southerners. The Southerners believe, and with good reason, that the rest of Lebanon doesn't give a crap about their security or interests. At the beginning of this latest conflict (prior to major hits on Beirut), I actually heard people saying, "Well, they are not hitting Beirut. They're hitting those "other" areas." And the Southern Lebanese are accused of not being nationalistic? Please.
Now, personally, I would love to see the Lebanese army in every part of Lebanon and a unified government. But, that government has to take care of ALL the people - no more second class citizens because of religion. That alone would significantly dim the luster of HA. The LAF was greeted with rice and flowers when they deployed to the South. That's positive.
Unfortunately, though, HA has managed to upstage the Lebanese government yet again (with little effort I might add) by providing immediate and highly needed aid to the people who have been hit the most. Where is the Lebanese government? And what is going to happen to all the aid that it is going to get after this? Will we see the skimming of billions of dollars to the privileged like we did in the 90s? Will the government become easy fodder for the likes of Nasrallah?
If we want something to protest in Lebanon now, we should be protesting our own government and holding them accountable for what is to come. It is a treacherous road from here - let's hope we can manage it.
In my comment above, when I say, "From reading this blog, apparently the Israelis have fond memories of that incursion", I meant the 82 incursion into Lebanon.
@Anonymous,
As this thread is not the place for such a discussion, but as your post was interesting, I will however answer you shortly, on points that concern me or the Lebanese. I leave it to the Israelis to answer other points.
First, I do NOT discriminate between, christians, shiites and sunnis, like you alledged. I really don't accept such cheap accusations. If you wanted to prove me wrong, all you had to do is quote what I already said and bring proof that it is false.
I merely draw objectively, BUT WITHOUT TABOOS, the real lebanese society. I don't really give a damn about the politically correct stuff. it is this that led us where we are now !
Moreover, from your post, it seems that you are saying that the shiites love HA because when the government failed at its duties, HA generously and voluntarily filled the gap.....
In my opinion, you got this point wrong. It is the other way around. maybe it was so at the beginning, in the early 1980's (Maybe). But since then, it has been the other way around: The government cannot attend to its duties in the south BECAUSE of HA's presence !! don't be fooled in thinking the other way around.
How could you ask about what the government did while the IAF was violating the southlebanese airspace, while NO LAF soldiers would be allowed in the south by HA, while no governmental institution is allowed to set foot in HA-land ??
you say that HA was the only one to "give a crap" during the 20-year-occupation of the south....
Same reason !!! HA wouldn't allow anyone down there !!! it is the "chasse gardée" of HA !!
This applies to every one of your accusations against the government.
Don't believe that HA was the good samaritaine all these years, just waiting for the government to take its place.
One more thing, the underdog of lebanese politics since the 1980's were undoubtedly the christians, who were the most to suffer under the Syrian hegemony.
Finally sir, I'll have you know that the 1 million (majoritarily) shiite refugees from the south were taken in by christians and sunnis in the north !! Please don't try to show the shiites as hated by other sections in Lebanon. Preposterous accusation !
It is exactly HA's aim to show that shiites are hated by others, that they are looked down at, that the government has deserted them... what better way to assert HA's dominance on them ?..
"Unfortunately, though, HA has managed to upstage the Lebanese government yet again (with little effort I might add) by providing immediate and highly needed aid to the people who have been hit the most. Where is the Lebanese government?"
hmmm hmmm... direct that question at HA please, and tell Nasrallah to stop acting as the president of the republic, which he is not, and certainly to stop dragging my country whenever he likes into a destructive war... "We are fighting the islamic nation's war, whether the lebanese like it or not", had nasrallah said..... need I say more, my friend ?
So please, before accusing ME of discrimination, take a closer look at the situation.
I will stop here, because I don't want to write a very long post which is not in accordance with the title of the post.
However, there are many posts on my blog that have more or less similar subjects, I will be glad to read you there !
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